that's true on civil rights as well. he's been unfairly criticized for being weak on civil rights. he was not as strong as he could have been, but he did things behind the scenes that were important. >> let's talk, presidential historian, jon meacham, who has a book coming out after the election that's forthcoming. "thomas jefferson, t.j." ike, a good president? a near great president? or a great president? >> i would say he's great. i think that he -- one of the things we haven't talked about on the domestic side is he ratified what franklin roosevelt and harry truman had done in that he could have created -- in 1952, '53, the political climate, i think, and check me on this, evan, was such that if he had been really intent on rolling back the new deal and the fair deal, it would have been a huge fight and would have divided the country even more. so what he did, i think, is what bill clinton essentially did for ronald reagan. >> reagan. >> which is shift the conversation slightly, but accept the basic -- he was burkian -- accept the basic reality of what he found. >> like what th